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Germans=Dutch?

 
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egbert



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BerichtGeplaatst: 01 Jan 2012 18:16    Onderwerp: Germans=Dutch? Reageer met quote

I am reading the accounts of a French chasseur a pied, involved in the Vosges mountain warfare. He addresses the Germans equally often as "Dutch". Some pages http://www.archive.org/stream/lettersfromacha00pellgoog#page/n4/mode/2up in this book (41,48,50,56,68 and the following) he addressed his German opponents in the trenches as "Dutch" . Anybody understands why the French addressed Germans=Dutch?
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In Gedenken an Grossvater OffzStellv. Gottfried S., IR 49, 4.Kompanie, gefallen 1.5.1918 bei Merville/Bois de Nieppe: "Lest was am Wald n/westlich Merville vorgeht - dort bin ich..."
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AOK4



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BerichtGeplaatst: 01 Jan 2012 18:46    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Egbert,

Ich würde sagen, es ist ein Fehler beim Übersetzen.

Jan
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egbert



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BerichtGeplaatst: 01 Jan 2012 18:52    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Glaube ich nicht Jan, an anderer Stelle redet er von seinen Kameraden wie sie über die deutschen Namen philosophieren als "Germans", "Boches" and "Dutch", alles in einem Satz! Schau auch mal in die zitierten Seiten -in einem Satz Germans im Nächsten Dutch!!!????
_________________
In Gedenken an Grossvater OffzStellv. Gottfried S., IR 49, 4.Kompanie, gefallen 1.5.1918 bei Merville/Bois de Nieppe: "Lest was am Wald n/westlich Merville vorgeht - dort bin ich..."
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Aurel Sercu



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BerichtGeplaatst: 01 Jan 2012 19:47    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Sorry, Egbert, I'm not sure I understand. I have googled a while but I can't find the answer to this question :

Was this English book translated from a French original ? (Can't find any mention of the book written in French on the internet.) Or was it directly translated from the French manuscript into English ?

If so, I somehow think that - in spite of the terms Dutch and Boches and Germans mentioned arbitrarily - that there must be a translation error ?

Actually my very first idea after a quick glance at your initial posting was : "Oh ! The man must have served in Flanders for a while, and there he must have heard our Flemish locals use the word for Germans (de Duitsers, in dialect something like "de Duitsche".).

Or maybe we don't have to look so far ? Maybe he just used the name used by the Germans themselves for themselves (die Deutschen) ? And somehow mistakenly this was transformed from the "Deutschen" into "the Dutch" ? And nobody (neither the author or anyone else realising that the Dutch are in the Netherlands, not in Germany ?)

Sorry if this doesn't make sense.

But I would like to see the original French publication, or the original manuscript.

Aurel
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egbert



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BerichtGeplaatst: 01 Jan 2012 19:56    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Aurel I have contacted a French friend already. The same friend that pointed the book out to me. He says that there was never a French book version. The English language book was directly translated from the French language field post letters into (American)-English. The author and his family were bi-lingual as they lived in the USA and Robert Pellesier, a professor in linguistics in the USA, only volunteered to serve with his home country in France. A glimpse in the original letters would certainly help......
_________________
In Gedenken an Grossvater OffzStellv. Gottfried S., IR 49, 4.Kompanie, gefallen 1.5.1918 bei Merville/Bois de Nieppe: "Lest was am Wald n/westlich Merville vorgeht - dort bin ich..."
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Aurel Sercu



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BerichtGeplaatst: 01 Jan 2012 20:10    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Egbert,

And what if there were several translators working all together or simultaneously, without however much consultation with each other ?

(Yes, I know, you wrote that these words Germans, Boches, Dutch occur in the same sentence or page.)

A mystery...
(Almost (only almost !) as mysterious as the origin of the Boezinge farm ... C*nd*t Tr**re Smile )

Aurel
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Red Roses



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BerichtGeplaatst: 01 Jan 2012 22:01    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

And of course you cannot expect Americans to get the point of most things most of the time Rolling Eyes .

Indeed, and as Aurel is pointing out, both the notions of 'Dutch' and 'Deutsch' have their linguistic origin in common. They both come up to "the people", or "what the (plain) people will understand". As far as Dutch (or 'Diets(c), as was the medieval term, goes, this stood in contrast with the language of the learned or the clerical people, which was Latin.
Dutch 'iemand iets diets maken' (the expression is still used, "to point out something in Dutch) stands for 'to point something out in understandable language.

The American translators will obviously not have managed to make head or tail of Dutch (which is used by barely 20 or 25,odd m speakers, but happens to be the most beautiful language in the world), which is why they mistook it for 'Deutsch, German'.

Which doesn't, by the way, solve Aurel's C*nd*t Tr**re. As a matter of fact, Aurel, how am I to pronounce that?
Have contacted the Volksbund deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge e.v. and some Deutsche contacts, hoping for them to find us a clue. But still awaiting a reply. We hebben nog een hééél jaar, Boezinge! Hartelijke groet aan Aurel. Where have all the valuable Diggers times gone. Long time passing. And what a shame (gvd)...


And now off to the playground girls and boys...

Aurel Sercu @ 01 Jan 2012 20:10 schreef:
Egbert,

And what if there were several translators working all together or simultaneously, without however much consultation with each other ?

(Yes, I know, you wrote that these words Germans, Boches, Dutch occur in the same sentence or page.)

A mystery...
(Almost (only almost !) as mysterious as the origin of the Boezinge farm ... C*nd*t Tr**re Smile )

Aurel

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habt mich lieb: Ich trage die Fahne' (R.M.Rilke)
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egbert



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BerichtGeplaatst: 02 Jan 2012 9:59    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Thank you all for educating me. Interesting genre.
For completeness I'd like to post an answer which I received from Doc2 in the GWF:
The classic usage of this term in American English is in relation to the farmers of German origin who still today reside in Pennsylvania, and are called the "Pennsylvania Dutch". Etymologically, this may have been derived from "Pennsylvania Deutsch", but in this period "Dutch" was used to describe anyone who spoke any of the Germanic Languages (including both German and Dutch). Thus, I don't think it would have been unusual for anyone from the NE United States at that period to have referred to the Germans as "Dutch". This usage goes back to the 17th Century, when there were references to "High Dutch" (i.e. Germans) and "Low Dutch" (i.e. people from the Netherlands). There is an old American Drinking song which talks about the "Highland Dutch" and the "Lowland Dutch"-- I have often wondered if this was a reference to Germans and Netherlanders, as there is not really much "highland" in the Netherlands. Doc

P.S. Aurel just ask the right people and the C.T. enigma will be solved as well Cool
_________________
In Gedenken an Grossvater OffzStellv. Gottfried S., IR 49, 4.Kompanie, gefallen 1.5.1918 bei Merville/Bois de Nieppe: "Lest was am Wald n/westlich Merville vorgeht - dort bin ich..."
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